TRANSCRIPT CONTINUES ( ADD 10:27 to each time stamp if you need to find your way...thanks for your patience, listener!)



00:01.54

alexshinkarovsky

Great And so I think you know of that range of experiences where people try a little bit. Ah they try a tiny bit doesn't work or they're like you where they're extremely determined and keep trying until they figure something out then you have the folks over here who. Have kids maybe have a career. They can't really switch careers and so maybe they accept the psychological dissonance of having a job they dislike and it runs them down but they kind of accept it. Yeah, and um, maybe can touch on like what made you push through I mean.

00:24.91

Amanda Butler

Um, yeah.

00:32.60

alexshinkarovsky

Ah, was it the car accident that did it and the concussion that resulted was it just you were so unhappy with what you were doing. Could you touch on that. Maybe.

00:37.95

Amanda Butler

A lot of it had to do with being really unhappy with what I was doing and not being able to see living but continuing to live my life that way until I could retire it was like. Okay, if I'm going to be feeling this way doing this kind of work that I am not really enjoying for the next thirty five years until I can retire. What's the point that's not really much life that I would like to live and so I knew that I had to find something else that could. Feel more like a life worth living.

01:15.90

alexshinkarovsky

And was that in concurrence with your ah car accident and the stuff you the chronic fatigue stuff was at all around the same time maybe could just give a quick timeline for folks.

01:20.83

Amanda Butler

The chronic fatigue stuff started in my twenty s around 22 23 and I struggled with that for a long time. The car accident actually happened while I was in graduate school trying to finish my degree and my internship hours and.

01:38.25

alexshinkarovsky

Okay.

01:40.20

Amanda Butler

So I had to lean very heavily on the um, kind of practitioners that I was seeing and the treatments that I was getting to heal from that while also being able to do what I needed to finish school So The career as a therapist was. Kind of the meaningful career that was my life goal of this is something meaningful I could do I couldn't really quit on it because of the car accident The concussions. So yeah.

02:07.19

alexshinkarovsky

Okay, cool. So so you were pushing through the fatigue stuff while you're working at your job in life sciences. You're going to therapy so you make the decision to switch going to school for therapy graduate school Carson happens.

02:16.84

Amanda Butler

Um.

02:24.49

alexshinkarovsky

Already have these practices because you're trying to figure out the chronic fatigue you double up on them lean in and um, you know by the point you entered therapy school grad school. Um, and by the time that unfortunate accent happened. You had kind of figured out some things that would help you like getting a diet right? The exercise right.

02:28.90

Amanda Butler

Um, and.

02:39.63

Amanda Butler

Yeah.

02:43.72

alexshinkarovsky

Um, Acupuncture is a good outlet and and you know of course you know what I do as a health coach helping people with sleep food and fitness and emotional health and so I'm no stranger to that journey myself where lots of stomach issues. Lots of mental health anxiety depression.

02:49.62

Amanda Butler

Are.

03:00.44

alexshinkarovsky

Ah, struggling to be in control mood mood regulation. Um I mean that was always a big exerciser. Um, and therapy was always a part of my life since I was probably 15 Um, but until I dialed in the the food and the sleep and a few psychotropic meds. So.

03:01.37

Amanda Butler

The.

03:11.46

Amanda Butler

Um.

03:18.82

Amanda Butler

Um.

03:19.80

alexshinkarovsky

You know a mctal Moodot stabilizer etc I was really able to come to some balance but it it did take a lot of experimenting and you know I'm someone that's very determined and I come from some privilege where I can have time and good insurance etc to explore those things. Um, what do you think makes people miss the mark on that determination because it's kind of part of that.

03:23.82

Amanda Butler

Um.

03:30.70

Amanda Butler

The.

03:37.70

Amanda Butler

There is a lot of that frustration and a kind of a misunderstanding of if you've been.

03:37.81

alexshinkarovsky

Story of getting healthier. You know people get frustrated. They give up. Um, what have you seen out there.

03:51.85

Amanda Butler

Feeling unwell or struggling with health issues for a long time. That's not going to be an overnight fix or maybe even a fix of a couple of months I had 1 practitioner a chiropractor tell me that for the amount of years that someone has been struggling with the condition.

03:58.69

alexshinkarovsky

Um, yeah.

04:09.80

Amanda Butler

It takes about that many months of active treatment. So if I've been having gastrointestinal issues for 12 years I'm looking at maybe twelve months of active treatment to start resolving that and. That can be hard for a lot of people. Especially if there are maybe financial concerns or career concerns not having time that kind of thing or just getting kind of burned out by having to go to a bunch of appointments or make a bunch of changes. It the society that we live in is not really set up in a way that functions to assist people in living a healthy lifestyle and a lot of people can kind of drown in that.

04:57.54

alexshinkarovsky

Okay, so could be anything from too much work home issues financial issues. Um and not not knowing that really could get better. You know like you touch on at the top of how it's just not always clear that acupuncture could work unless you know somebody who.

05:04.31

Amanda Butler

Um, yeah.

05:14.57

alexshinkarovsky

Who's done it especially in your place where if you're maybe not in a big city or I mean Salt Lake's a pretty big city but even still maybe your friends are like well what is acupuncture you know and it feels weird and woowo um depending how open people are to new things. Um, and I guess like what? what do you recommend people when they're.

05:17.20

Amanda Butler

Death In. And.

05:33.26

alexshinkarovsky

Anyone listening to this or anybody who sees this if they're dealing with some chronic health stuff like how how should they persevere I mean? Yeah yeah, what would you say I have a few views myself.

05:42.42

Amanda Butler

Yeah, it can be really beneficial to seek out someone like you a health coach who has been on this kind of journey and can offer some guidance about the reality of the situation like that. It. Things don't resolve overnight. It can take some time and some determination and also maybe just talking to other people like if they're not in a place to hire someone like you talk to other people who've done similar treatments or. Had similar struggles to find out what worked for them and to get kind of a picture of what to expect because a lot of times when people don't really have an idea of what to expect or the trajectory of what something could look like that can feel really scary and dealing with the unknown can be kind of overwhelming. To people and so just having an idea of what it might look like and what to generally expect can be helpful as far as that understanding and being able to stick with it knowing it's not just an overnight thing or you go to like. 3 acupuncture sessions and you're cured of the chronic fatigue or gastrointestinal problems or whatever the case might be.

07:01.18

alexshinkarovsky

And there's so many places I want to go with that because what you said is like really need someone in your corner. Whether it's a health coach or someone like you who's a therapist who can cheer you on week to week and say hey this is going to get better and by the way you also need the provider. Um.

07:08.92

Amanda Butler

Um, yeah.

07:15.54

alexshinkarovsky

To give you a plan like you said the chiropractor said hey twelve years twelve months okay now I know what I'm working with I can be optimistic and say six months but that's still six months and 20 appointments you know, um and then what you also touched on really folks. Ah.

07:19.35

Amanda Butler

Um, yeah.

07:23.99

Amanda Butler

My.

07:35.20

alexshinkarovsky

They have someone in their corner having a timeline is important. Um, well I think those are the 2 big ones and I mean did you ah growing up said you were and you were a runner and maybe you played some sports and you touched on ah a bit about your background and community that you were raised and I mean. People have coaches and therapists and ah that kind of thing growing up for you because growing up I had a piano teacher I had like all my intramural group sports. You know I was homeschooled for a couple years I was in therapy when I was a kid you know I was in enrichment classes. So I had a ton of. Like support and ah I was really open to like being coached and being so in fact, we're not missing that. That's why I really you know hire people like you. So did you have that grown up or what made you seek it out.

08:22.46

Amanda Butler

I didn't have that kind of thing growing up. Um the situation where I grew up in therapy was I don't know not really understood at the time I was born in the 80 s and when a teacher at parent teacher conference in elementary schools suggested that I visit the school psychologist. My mom was just like no, that's not going to happen. Um, so people in my life as a kid didn't really do therapy or have coaches or anything like that. Kind of did my own thing as far as exercise and what I was doing but I wasn't really on any sports teams. It was just me doing my own thing trying to figure it out based on what I could find around me. So yeah.

09:09.87

alexshinkarovsky

And and then but still like when you're old when you're older when you grew up you you got your own therapist. You found the pride and how did you find Psychotherapy I'm curious and this all kind of ties back to when we're supporting the people around us like using those narratives because we figured something out and I'm not so.

09:22.70

Amanda Butler

Then.

09:28.76

alexshinkarovsky

By no means am I like Rich Nirvana yet I I don't know maybe you have like I feel. Okay, you know and you seem like you've gone through a lot of stuff and you're like okay and I think that's where we want most of our friends and family to be yeah and our patients and our clients. So we have what made you find therapy.

09:31.43

Amanda Butler

If if. Yeah. What made me find therapy is I was 22 or 23 and having some major issues in a relationship I was in at the time and. Was also really unhappy at the job where I was working but they did have an employee assistance program. So I called the employee assistance program and they set me up with the therapist and that's kind of how it started.

10:07.52

alexshinkarovsky

Nice so you were having issues you sought help and then somebody was like hey Therapy's a good idea and you you kind of went for it. Oh so you're fairly independent minded and you figured this stuff out on your own and then like switching gears was your family supportive. Ah.

10:12.10

Amanda Butler

Yeah.

10:25.20

alexshinkarovsky

You know with your chronic fatigue with the relationship stuff. You're going on. Are you someone that confides a lot in them or was it more like hey you know talk about the weather and you know hey how are you doing like how how much did you involve those around you and and what you're going through.

10:37.26

Amanda Butler

I might have mentioned some things briefly at the time it didn't feel like there was a lot of support there that's changed over the years and the family situation feels more supportive but back then. I didn't say a whole lot about it. I'm not really sure how much I mentioned besides just a brief overview of oh I'm going to therapy or I'm struggling in this relationship I didn't go into that much detail.

11:03.25

alexshinkarovsky

So You would you would share that you're in therapy. Maybe but you wouldn't You wouldn't like you know, totally try to seek help from the family and and figure out what was going on so you were really a you know a Self-seeker and I guess coming back To. You know your peers your family your patients. Do you find that your family's also like that where they like to go figure things out on their own or is everybody different in your family.

11:31.40

Amanda Butler

There is kind of an independent streak and Self-seeker streak in my family. Um, it tends to maybe burn out a little bit sooner with other people in my family than it does with me.

11:47.86

Amanda Butler

Yeah.

11:47.95

alexshinkarovsky

Um, and and are they I mean does that like independent self-seeking driving forward does that express itself in other areas of their life. Maybe just not on the health area. Would you say.

12:00.12

Amanda Butler

Yeah, it it expresses itself in other areas. My sister She's very independent minded as far as her kind of side business that she has as a graphic designer in addition to her job doing that. Um.

12:15.00

alexshinkarovsky

Nice.

12:16.33

Amanda Butler

And with my parents they were you know, kind of focused on doing their own things in their own way as well like their hobbies that they had and so that was kind of their way of being independent.

12:27.24

alexshinkarovsky

And just sounds like you know folks in your family are fairly fairly driven in their way and I just wonder how and same with my family too and I always wonder like how can we take that same mindset you have towards work you know towards your health and that's a big question for it's why I started this. Ah, this conversation with you and and as we're building this podcast and this interview series because people are really good at certain things and I just that same skill set I think could be applied to making themselves feel better and prolonging their life and just making their lives easier for their families. Um. Is there any narratives you like to share off the bat or I can touch on a few we we talked about in the past.

13:13.20

Amanda Butler

Let's touch on a few that we talked about in the past.

13:16.91

alexshinkarovsky

Okay, awesome. Well ah one you said like 1 of your close family members. They're experiencing a lot of anxiety and depression and some things with their relationship going on which they shared with you. Um, and I guess some personal health issues as well. And.

13:29.80

Amanda Butler

9

13:33.12

alexshinkarovsky

Um, can you touch on like what your initial reaction was or what what your relationship has been with that person over time and in terms of like sharing and caring and then initial reaction and how it progressed from there over the years and and any wins. Yeah.

13:46.23

Amanda Butler

Yeah, with this particular family member. She and I are really close I feel very protective over her and I always want to be there for her to help her in whatever way that I can um, it's really hard for me to know that she's struggling or unhappy. So. So and there have been a couple of times over the years where she expressed an interest in therapy and said she was struggling with some anxiety depression. Maybe some Adhd so a few times I found her lists of referrals for a therapist and gave them to her but then. She didn't follow through. Um this most recent time I found her some referrals she did end up finding someone but it was more for like medication management of Adhd but you know that's a step in the right direction. And then she also has struggled with some other kind of more physical health issues and I gave her some recommendations as far as the naturopathic doctor that I see and maybe a couple of other ones she ended up finding an integrative medicine doctor that she likes and has been going to and. So um, that has been a good step I think and I have seen that it has helped her with the kind of relationship piece the pattern in my family around that has been to kind of complain and complain about relationship issues without really you know.

15:15.16

Amanda Butler

Actually talking to the partner about it or going to therapy or really doing something about it. But ah we can keep working on that when this family member does follow me on social media and so sometimes if I post something related to like you know couples therapy and that it's. Kind of for her.

15:36.32

alexshinkarovsky

I love ah so it's like you're you're writing it and you're like I hope you read the you know it's like sometimes I think with my girlfriend like should I post a meme that tells her not to wake me up in the morning at 7 a you know that kind of thing. Um, so.

15:47.57

Amanda Butler

Me.

15:52.10

alexshinkarovsky

So for you that's actually 1 way on social media. You can talk to your close people without actually saying something to them. You know and generalize and put it in third party terms. Um, yeah I mean I'd love to hear and and we can cut this if we want like.

15:57.31

Amanda Butler

Yeah.

16:08.70

alexshinkarovsky

You grew up in Salt Lake City is that right? and.

16:09.16

Amanda Butler

Yes, well in Provo Utah kind of 50 miles south of Salt Lake city but it's all when big metropolitan area.

16:19.88

alexshinkarovsky

Okay, so provo 50 miles south. Okay, so you wouldn't say you're from Salt Lake if people asked you. But if I asked you and I'm not from Salt Lake you would just say Salt Lake for me to be easier. Yeah, and um, you touched you told me that the community you came from the alcohol was forbidden. Is there anything else, you'd like to share with folks about.

16:24.74

Amanda Butler

Yeah.

16:37.80

alexshinkarovsky

Where you came from how that's affected you how that's made you become a therapist and then coming back to this this close person how that's and the people how that's affected. You know the complain complain complain versus do something versus take action. You know is that there a link there between those those 2

16:51.27

Amanda Butler

Um, yeah I was raised in um, the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints Lds Church there are a lot of things about that that. Didn't work for me. Um, it was not really my spiritual path I understand though that for a lot of people. It is and they are really identified with that but things like alcohol smoking use of any kind of drugs or anything like that was forbidden. Um. The attitude towards women and relationships from my perspective always felt a little bit misogynistic like women were second class citizens and didn't have much of a say in relationships like they were just supposed to kind of do whatever the man. Told them I don't know if that has changed over the years because it's been a while since I've been involved but I think that had a lot to do with the pattern that I saw in my family of my female family members just kind of sitting and complaining about their husbands while not actually addressing the issues with them. It's like. Maybe they didn't feel like they had any authority or any say in resolving the relationship issues or getting therapy to deal with that because it just was like well this is just what I've signed on for and I just have to put up with that and I do see.

18:14.48

Amanda Butler

You know a fair number of clients now who are part of that faith and so maybe it has changed but back in the day It was really not a thing.

18:25.51

alexshinkarovsky

Yeah I was just thinking that I was like I wonder if your clients um you know are are representing Lds community because you must have ah intimate at least a decent knowledge of how to speak their language quote unquote. Um.

18:34.59

Amanda Butler

Um, yeah.

18:40.16

alexshinkarovsky

It's a really tough thing to not have agency I mean it's one of the I think core parts of emotional and psychological health if you agree um and so bringing that back to your family. Do you feel like for them that you became a therapist. They understood it what you do were they dismissive of it and then like when you get together for Thanksgiving or or another holiday. Ah, they ever asking questions. Yeah I guess their attitude and then yeah, do they ask? you stuff.

18:59.97

Amanda Butler

A lot of. Yeah, at first I didn't feel like their attitude towards my making the career change was very supportive. It felt to me like they saw it as Well. You already have a decent career like why go through all of this.

19:19.63

alexshinkarovsky

He.

19:20.95

Amanda Butler

And then over the years I feel like that has shifted. They ask me a lot more questions. Um I had this assignment where I had to practice doing therapy like practice listening skills or something with people and write a paper about it and 1 of the people I practiced with was my mom and after. We did the little assignment she was like oh yeah, you're actually pretty good at this and so over the years it has shifted and they've become more supportive and more understanding.

19:44.55

alexshinkarovsky

Perfect.

19:53.59

alexshinkarovsky

And and has any of your um, therapizing rub off through osmosis like on them have they started to do things that you know I don't know yeah has the rub off. Yeah.

20:02.97

Amanda Butler

A little bit a little bit. Um my mom with her church actually um, does volunteer work at the psychiatric hospital with the people there who are members of her church and. She has commented to me like oh I think that a lot of these people are really misunderstood and just really need some understanding in someone to care about them words to that effect.

20:26.30

alexshinkarovsky

Um, ah is that typical in the Lds community that to see how did how is mental illness seen Um, generally yeah.

20:38.18

Amanda Butler

There's a range of views I think probably each person in that community has their own view. There are segments of that community who see it as maybe not beneficial to go to therapy like. Problems could just be solved by praying more or you know being more faithful. There are other people within that community. A lot of the lds clients that I see who are very much believers in mental Health and that therapy and getting that kind of support can be beneficial. So it's. Ah, wide range of views.

21:12.18

alexshinkarovsky

Arranges. Yeah, it ranges well and um, when you yeah guess well you touched on one of the one of your close family members. Um, and I wonder do you have any other anecdotes that come to mind either from family or or peers or. Folks that approached you in your personal life. Um, where where you were able to make an impact and then you can also give me 1 where you tried and maybe spectacularly failed or you know, whatever.

21:40.19

Amanda Butler

Yeah, with a few clients I've been able to make an impact There is one client I've been seeing for a while who struggles with some chronic health health issues some concerns related to weight and some other things and. He always has like these really big goals for how he's going to kind of change his life overnight like oh I'm going to do this 10 day juice fast and drop £15 from that and then everything's going to be better after that and so in the work with him. There was a lot of behavioral. Stuff around. Ok. Well maybe let's make some small changes that are more manageable and it didn't seem to stick until about maybe a year later when he started talking about oh I guess I just need to take some smaller steps and maybe. Swap out eating fast food for eating like some chicken and vegetables for dinner and make some small changes and talking about it like it was his idea and so that is something I consider a win.

22:49.91

alexshinkarovsky

Definitely a 1 huge one and it might have been not just his idea but an idea you co-created but then he he kind of brought it back up and said oh you know what? I've been thinking you know that kind of thing. Yeah, so you.

22:55.55

Amanda Butler

Um.

23:00.82

Amanda Butler

Um, yeah.

23:05.49

alexshinkarovsky

Ah, you helped him orient towards the day-to-day and and regaining control. Um, let's see what else you you touched on another patient I think when we were speaking and another close family member I Guess who.

23:05.97

Amanda Butler

And.

23:20.32

alexshinkarovsky

And might be the same one who asked you for a list of recommendations never followed through on that piece of it but got some medication management and um, yeah, yeah, and what at what point I mean I don't know how often you see see your family and I get.

23:27.26

Amanda Butler

Yeah.

23:39.58

alexshinkarovsky

How do you especially if you don't I mean you must be relatively close to them since you're in Salt Lake and you grow up fifty miles out um do you have any patients who are far away from their family. 1 thing I see and it's a question with an answer myself and then I'll let you go 1 thing I see is ah you know have a friend who her parents are in Virginia and they're.

23:41.96

Amanda Butler

And.

23:59.11

alexshinkarovsky

Diabetic and they're struggling with some heart conditions and they don't eat particularly healthy. They don't exercise. They're above the age of 65 and she feels kind of helpless because she's you know in New York 10 hours away she can't be there to model good behavior. They're probably not on social media. Um.

24:16.11

Amanda Butler

Um.

24:16.84

alexshinkarovsky

Her dad's gotten really into politics and gotten really angry about that stuff. There's no real way. She feels for her to model behavior and oftentimes people say well just lead. By example, you know, rather than proselytizing which is something you and I talked about pun intended with the church and yeah, have you seen any of that with your clients with your.

24:30.69

Amanda Butler

Um.

24:36.37

alexshinkarovsky

With your family as well.

24:38.57

Amanda Butler

With my family It's easy because I am close to them. Um, and we live nearby with one client that I see she's a nurse who's in nurse practitioner school her family lives in um Idaho and so. She's not um, able to see them very often but she has talked to me about making herself available if they ever have medical questions. She's talked to me about you know, suggesting dietary changes that they could make because her parents struggle with health issues and so. She I think is a really good example of being on call and just being available like really making herself available and being there to answer questions they might have and to just be a support when they um, want it and she has seen. Changes where they are more open to living a healthier lifestyle.

25:36.90

alexshinkarovsky

Did did she tell you what she did like did she just simply say hey I'm in nursing school I've been thinking about a lot of these things please call me if you want to talk about her What what was her? How did she do it.

25:47.37

Amanda Butler

When her family um has any medical issues like any appointments she checks in with them about how those went um and they talk to her about like test results. They've gotten and she helps them understand that and so it sounds to me from what she's said like she just keeps an ongoing dialogue with them about where they are with their health and just is kind of always there for them in that way.

26:17.38

alexshinkarovsky

That's a really good one so she she kind of follows the course and schedule of the doctors and the follow-ups and the tests and um yeah, sometimes the biggest thing in Health management is actually going to the darn appointment. You know? So um, that's one really good way I think of when your family is not close to you to.

26:24.21

Amanda Butler

Um.

26:28.68

Amanda Butler

Um, yeah.

26:34.97

alexshinkarovsky

Keep an eye on them and and um so I think that's one practical way to do it and then there's another practical way to do is just self-regulate and say I can't control what my family does I can't control my family's health. It's not really my business and although them being sick would impact me.

26:44.19

Amanda Butler

Read it.

26:54.24

alexshinkarovsky

It's still their life and I I want to I'd rather have a good relationship with them and can you talk on anything you you help your clients with on boundaries around their family and peers and loved ones.

27:02.85

Amanda Butler

Right? right? and a lot about a lot of that as far as boundaries is about being aware of what you are responsible for and what you're not responsible for you can be responsible for. Showing up for family members and providing the support that you can and you also can't you know, drag them to go see the acupuncturist or functional medicine doctor and so if you start to get really responsible and really caught up in.

27:35.69

alexshinkarovsky

So.

27:41.57

Amanda Butler

Oh My Gosh. What's going to happen to them if they don't get this health issue resolved and get really caught up in that responsibility of trying to fix them in a certain kind of way. That is something that's really easy to drown in and so the boundary then is around well I can be responsible for helping them with what I can help them with that. Ultimately their health journey is kind of their responsibility and I'll do what I can to support them I'll.

28:08.20

alexshinkarovsky

Um, you know.

28:09.83

Amanda Butler

Provide the referrals I'll make the suggestions I'll be there to answer questions or you know offer whatever I can to them and ultimately it's up to them and just knowing that somebody is around who is supportive who's maybe been on a similar Journey. Can. And who maybe the family members can see like oh this person has made some healthy changes and that has worked for them. Maybe there is something to all of this with the acupuncturist and the naturopath like.

28:42.99

alexshinkarovsky

And.

28:43.96

Amanda Butler

This family member seems to be getting better. Maybe there's something that I can take away from that that might work for me as well. Just really leading. By example, like you said is also kind of a way of having that boundary like well I'm leading. By example I'm doing what I can and they're welcome to follow me. You know, along this path if they want but I can't drag them along or shove them into the car and make them go to the Chiropractor.

29:13.22

alexshinkarovsky

Ah, even though sometimes I think we wish we could because we know the chiropractor will help. Um, yeah with the setting boundaries. Do you have any kind of templates you use for conversations when you when you tell people hey like it could be anything not just their health. But um.

29:18.22

Amanda Butler

Um.

29:29.33

alexshinkarovsky

Like hey I'm not sure how much for me, it's like hey I'm not sure how much advice you want from me on this or hey I'm not sure how much support you want for me on this particular subject. Um, do you want me to set up the the appointments for you and drive you there or would you rather just me give you the name but I don't know what what strategies and. Tips and tricks because I want folks to take something actionable. Ah, you know, really easily actionable away from this. Um, do you set up with folks. You know how do you?? How do you coach them.

29:53.98

Amanda Butler

Um.

29:57.84

Amanda Butler

So with um, one of my family members who um, shared that she was feeling kind of depressed and had thought about therapy I said something to her along the lines of. Well if you want to do that I feel like that would be really helpful and I would be happy to find you a therapist or a list of therapists that you could call and who you know would take your insurance and who might be a fit for you. And so just making the offer of okay this is what I will do if you're interested in having that out there and with maybe family members or friends who are kind of talking about not feeling well and maybe not taking action towards that. Um. Conversation around that can often sound like well are you just wanting to kind of vent about this right now and have me listen and would you like me to maybe do some problem solving and find you some referrals or do some things that could help just so.

30:52.97

alexshinkarovsky

Um, and.

31:00.18

Amanda Butler

You know we're both clear on. Yeah, they just 1 event right now because that will make them feel better versus they want me to actually do something so that I know what's needed and um, maybe not to. Put the effort into finding the referrals if they're not going to take it so it just helps to have a lot of communication and be really clear on what's needed. Yeah.

31:19.85

alexshinkarovsky

And.

31:26.65

alexshinkarovsky

On what's needed. Yeah and I I was going to push back on your first point where you like person said hey I'm depressed I don't feel good. You're like well I can find you therapists and that was my reaction ten years ago where you know I was just like hey I can I got you and now having worked in. Development and building my own business as a health coach for 10 years I realized like you can kind of real people in by saying like oh well, what could I do to help they're like well I don't I don't know I say well you know what do you think and you just keep letting them like self-actualize the help.

31:55.51

Amanda Butler

And then.

31:59.55

alexshinkarovsky

But then in your second narrative. You're like you actually were like hey do you want help or do you want me to just listen which is probably the first question. Um, in any case when a friend is venting or a family and then if they say yeah you know well I could use some help you say? Well, what do you need help with us say why don't know and you keep letting them in my experience. Come back to you with.

32:01.26

Amanda Butler

And then can and. Yeah.

32:19.55

alexshinkarovsky

Ah, some ideas on help and and I guess with that particular case they did not take up the therapy recommendations even though you spent some time getting them. Um, but how many times do you feel like people is just one event versus how many times do they want help? um.

32:19.59

Amanda Butler

Me then.

32:26.30

Amanda Butler

Edit.

32:37.30

Amanda Butler

The majority of times they kind of just one event and then at some point they seem to get sick of venting and actually do want some help.

32:38.80

alexshinkarovsky

Yeah.

32:49.50

alexshinkarovsky

And um, you know I've I've had so many of my close friends like around me who vent and I always want to just do some action towards helping. Do you think that's a feature of. My my controlling personality or my go get it personality or maybe you're similar to me or what's that about that desire to help to fix to take action.

33:11.32

Amanda Butler

I Think it comes from a space of having suffered with something difficult to not wanting other people to suffer like it's hard to see people that you care about struggling and suffering when there is something that could help them and it might not even be that difficult. For things to shift in a better direction for them.

33:35.45

alexshinkarovsky

Yeah, thank you I Agree it's ah guess I could get some free therapy on this podcast. But ah yeah, learning from others mistakes before making them. You know is usually a good strategy and yet you know you with your chronic health.

33:42.69

Amanda Butler

Um.

33:51.21

alexshinkarovsky

Journey. Maybe if somebody told you in your mid 20 s or early 20 s like hey go see that naturopath. You might have you might have not done it. You might have had to go through a traditional medicine system because that's what felt normal to you? um.

34:02.86

Amanda Butler

Um, and and.

34:07.48

alexshinkarovsky

So so we talked about folks in family. We talked about some patients we talked about having your family quite distant from you. Um, and you know I'm just looking here at my notes we talked on boundaries some some wins and. You know leading by example versus proselytizing um something else you touched on is and I think folks who benefit from is planting seeds. Um, how do you plant seeds. How do you How do you let your patients plant seeds whether it be a husband wife and you know the husband could really benefit from Xy and z how does the wife plant a seed without you know? um.

34:30.60

Amanda Butler

Um.

34:42.80

alexshinkarovsky

Giving them a plant.

34:44.24

Amanda Butler

Um, and so in um, kind of relationship situations where I've been seeing 1 partner and they feel like the other partner could benefit from therapy.

34:57.40

Amanda Butler

Often Planting that seed has looked like being willing and open to talk to the partner about therapy and what they're learning and maybe framing it as you know I Really love you and I'm really concerned about what's going on I feel that Therapy has been helpful for me and. If you're interested I feel like therapy could also maybe help you as far as these things you're struggling with you know it can be just really helpful to get some support and so if you're open to it I would be willing to help you find someone just something kind of similar to that is what has worked and people have. You know, um, helped their partners open up to maybe seeing a therapist or getting some kind of other help.

35:45.35

alexshinkarovsky

And and so the message behind that script is hey um I really care about you number 1 and number 2 I'm really worried about you and number 3 is this has really helped me um and then number 4 is maybe you could try it kind of thing but it's up to you.

35:56.97

Amanda Butler

Um.

35:59.58

Amanda Butler

Yeah.

36:03.33

alexshinkarovsky

Yeah, um, especially with couples I think it's such an intimate bond. Um, is there ever a time and a place to have those conversations what setting? um, have you seen works well and you know in those kind of tough conversations whether it be couples Or. Or family.

36:23.96

Amanda Butler

I'm often at home involved in some kind of quiet activity like just you know sitting around talking anyway and hanging out that might be a place to do that Or yeah, just. Oftentimes when they're already doing something together as a couple and things are feeling more relaxed that can be a good time to bring something like that up.

36:46.89

alexshinkarovsky

Okay, so maybe not like a very dramatic like we need to talk but more of it just like a casual like so hey I've been kind of noticing that kind of thing.

36:51.30

Amanda Butler

Yeah, hey I've been kind of noticing or you know hey I've been going and seeing a therapist for a while and it's helped me I've learned this and that and you know if you ever thought about going. It could be helpful. Yeah, that kind of thing.

37:12.78

alexshinkarovsky

And um, just moving to the other side of the the other person on the other side of that conversation who might not be feeling great and is hearing that from their partner and let's just say the partner brings it up twice in a month um or you know, let's say the partners you know, maybe a more of a personality like me who who wants to fix who wants to help who wants to take action. Um, and the other partners like god Alex like you're always not telling me what to do or you're always suggesting things. You're always trying to like how um. What's a good way for the person listening who who happens to be on the receiving end of this conversation and if they're not interested. What's a good way to say that you know for them.

37:55.40

Amanda Butler

Maybe something along the lines of I don't feel like that's going to work for me right now or um, yeah, something like that can help um, possibly this might be something that we could talk about later. That kind of thing.

38:14.28

alexshinkarovsky

Okay, and it just goes back to kind of boundary setting. Overall um relationships and um, it seems like that's you know some? That's a big part of your practice. Um, just.

38:18.56

Amanda Butler

Um.

38:26.32

Amanda Butler

Ah.

38:27.80

alexshinkarovsky

Just thinking here. So so high levelvel you know your your recommendations for talking to close family and close friends about health subjects is 1 setting boundaries to asking if help is needed before providing it and um, any other ones you summarize an ad.

38:44.78

Amanda Butler

Being open and remaining curious about what is going on with them and being open to their perspective and being willing to find out more. Rather than approaching it from a judgmental kind of critical place of well why are you always stopping and getting fast food on the way home. That's not very healthy. Why don't you just cook something healthy being open to well what is it that makes you want to stop at Mcdonald's every day on the way home. What's kind of hard about just.

39:06.74

alexshinkarovsky

Who and.

39:15.74

Amanda Butler

Cooking something healthier eating something healthier kind of approaching it in that way.

39:17.70

alexshinkarovsky

I really like that one just get curious and we hadn't really touched on that because like you touched when we spoke before getting curious it preempts judgment. It's like because your judgment might be wrong about the the reason they stop at Mcdonald's you might think it's.

39:30.75

Amanda Butler

Ah, no right.

39:37.42

alexshinkarovsky

Think you touched on us earlier when we spoke that they stop at Mcdonald's because they're lazy but um in your anecdote. What what was the actual reason they stopped at Mcdonald's or the the hypothetical actual reason.

39:45.34

Amanda Butler

The hypothetical is that they're maybe burned out from their workday and it just feels like too much effort to have to go home and cook something.

39:57.66

alexshinkarovsky

And so is it like it's some I think they call it open-ended interviewing in some ways when when you're asking ah an openend the question. Well what makes you do that instead of and then also do you ever see the word. Why? ah. Causing issues and in my experience using why sometimes seems aggressive but when you say what makes you it opens the person up. Do you see that.

40:16.58

Amanda Butler

Yeah, that's something they actually coached us on in graduate school was to rephrase why because it can sometimes come across as judgmental. So it was like well what makes you feel that way or how did you get to that conclusion that kind of thing.

40:33.36

alexshinkarovsky

And that that works in your experience. yeah yeah I think it's a really good one and I think when you're trying to help somebody or and when you want somebody to get better when you want somebody do anything whether this your kid or your partner or your friend. It's kind of trying to 0 in on what the pain point is now.

40:35.84

Amanda Butler

Yeah.

40:51.57

alexshinkarovsky

And if you just see somebody eating Mcdonald's it's like well that's dumb they must be too lazy to cook. But if you ask 5 leading questions you so well. What makes you do that say? Well you know I'm really burnt out from worko what makes you burned out from work. Well you know I have an hour commute there have to buy food there I have to buy food on the way home then I get home at seven thirty I have no energy say oh huh? Well what makes you um, not meal prep on the weekend and I say well I can't meal prep on the weekend because um, you know I have to watch my kids and that and I say.

41:11.35

Amanda Butler

Um.

41:21.73

alexshinkarovsky

Oh then then only then like as a health coach I would say hey have you looked into those meal prep services have you heard of those you know and then like that question is much more apt rather than just saying the meal prep right? after the Mcdonald's thing because they would just say no you know I don't.

41:26.80

Amanda Butler

Smooth.

41:36.67

alexshinkarovsky

I don't know how that would even work like it's kind of a lot of leading questions and it gets into the perception. Um, the rather gets into the question of perception. You know when you're um, when you're having intimate relationships and um, you know at what point I guess my maybe 1 of my last questions for amandos like.

41:44.59

Amanda Butler

Um, ah.

41:56.44

alexshinkarovsky

How real can you be with your feelings is the world a stage and do you need to always be acting in order to preserve people's um, people's peace of mind like what's the difference between being really real like I'm really worried about you. You're eating Mcdonald's every day you're gaining weight. You don't look great. You look unhappy versus. The leading questions not using why and and you know managing the perception of what you're trying to say I mean which one which camp do you fall in and how important is it um to to do one of the 2.

42:27.16

Amanda Butler

My approach is to be as authentic as I possibly can express concern as authentically as I possibly can in a way that is going to feel. Accessible to people if that makes sense and being able to genuinely say from a caring place. Caring authentic place of like I'm really concerned about your health I wonder what is making you stop at Mcdonald's every day I feel like that's maybe not a healthy choice and I want you to be healthy. Being able to approach that from an authentic standpoint while using language that is not going to make someone feel judged or blamed is the approach that I would take and again just connecting with an authentic sense of curiosity that. Helps kind of wipe away that judgment so to speak.

43:31.26

alexshinkarovsky

So not just using language of curiosity when you're really just judging but actually try to step back. That's really good. So I think that's the sweet spot which I'm so glad we landed on. Um this was really great and um.

43:32.36

Amanda Butler

Yeah, yeah.

43:45.41

alexshinkarovsky

Really glad you're able to share some personal and vulnerable stories of your family your peers. Ah your patients anonymously because I think it'll be tremendously helpful to people who see this online. So thank you so much? Um, yeah, and I will link Amanda's interview with us in the show notes.

43:52.98

Amanda Butler

Thanks Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

44:04.80

alexshinkarovsky

Um, and then the caption. Um, let's see any any last any last ah pieces you want to say anything you want to share here at the end to some things up.

44:18.32

Amanda Butler

Sometimes um, it's important to just take the smallest step that you can toward something healthier and so like with the example of the person hypothetically stopping at Mcdonald's every day on the way home. Maybe that stop. Starts with just cutting that out for one day a week and letting the letting there be kind of a snowball effect of building momentum and letting it get a little bit easier over time with practice. So just starting with the smallest possible step whether that's. Cutting out fast food one day a week or going to the gym just for 10 minutes and doing what you can for 10 minutes and letting the positive momentum build.

45:06.50

alexshinkarovsky

I love ah yeah I love ah, thanks for touching on that you're totally right? Everything starts with your first step out the door your first step into the gym. Um, your first day you go home and don't order Mcdonald's that's the first step and as humans habits really add up over time.

45:17.60

Amanda Butler

O.

45:23.10

alexshinkarovsky

Um, like drops of water. So I like that summarizes a lot of the behavioral change. We've been talking about. Um well Amanda where can people find you whether they're in Salt Lake city whether they're online. How can they follow you um to work with you to keep in touch to learn more from you.

45:37.60

Amanda Butler

Sure my website is Amanda Butler mftt.com and and that's where that's my website as a therapist I'm also on Instagram at alembic amanda a l e m b I see. Amanda and yeah, that'll get you to anything else. You want of mine.

46:01.39

alexshinkarovsky

That's great, awesome and I'll I'll link those in the caption and the notes. Well thanks again so much for your time and for your presence and tension. Um, and so psych to keep in touch and keep the ball going on on what we're working on.

46:16.23

Amanda Butler

And thank you so much.

46:17.68

alexshinkarovsky

Thanks again, all right, take care.